New Site Tips and Tricks

The more I think about this question of obligatory gender identification for this site, the more it seems unnecessary to me for the many, very valid reasons already stated.

If I recall correctly, there was no indicator on our avatar or beside our name as to which preference we may or may not have indicated, on the original set-up of Stories Space. Nor was there a colour code.

I've been a member here since the first day the site went live in October 2010. What has mattered here are the writers, the readers, the stories written, the help given with writing stories, when it was requested, the friendliness and camaraderie of the members which developed both in the forum setting and privately.

As far as I can tell, the success or failure of a story is not based on the professed gender of the writer. The friendships made are forged on affinity, regardless of professed gender.

And this site, from the start and until now, has been a place for writers and readers. There are members here who have self-published their works or found an indie publisher. There are writers and readers here who are voracious readers, and who share their love of literature and the written word with one another. The exchanges based on all those things are wonderful, and they happen, as far as I can tell, between people who do not care a fig if they know how the other person identifies in terms of gender.

Nevertheless, it is well documented in the publishing world that many male readers shun books written by women. Based on that, the author of the Harry Potter books chose to be known as J.K. Rowling. So yes, knowing how a person identifies can be unfairly detrimental. Many of us know this from deep personal experience in our daily lives. To say the least, it gets very wearisome as the years go by  

So you see, dear powers that be, there is far more to this question for many of us, than just a colour, a symbol, a drop down menu with a range of choices.

Speaking for myself, I do not think it is necessary for this site, nor that we should be boxed into a predetermined set of choices, unless they be something like:

Writer

Reader

Both

Other

Thank you for your work and patience.

Quote by Verity
My dear Violet, I am really sorry if my flippant remark caused any offence. I’m not very good at “reading the room.” In fact, I’m a bit thick on these matters. I even had to look up cis on Google.

I should really read the whole thread before making silly remarks. Please accept my apology. I never mean to cause harm or offence to anyone. I shall be more careful in the future. Regards, Verity

Quote by Violet_the_Verbose

Quote by Verity
My dear Violet, I am really sorry if my flippant remark caused any offence. I’m not very good at “reading the room.” In fact, I’m a bit thick on these matters. I even had to look up cis on Google.

I should really read the whole thread before making silly remarks. Please accept my apology. I never mean to cause harm or offence to anyone. I shall be more careful in the future. Regards, Verity

Aw, Verity. I never took offence to what you wrote. I thought it was rather a brilliant way to define yourself as you are a brilliant and wonderful person. (hugs)

First off, I am disappointed to see this thread, which I intended as place where we could help each other learn to use the new site has turned into a debate about gender identity on the site. Basically, the thread is now useless for what I intended. However, that is the way of forums and since I'm not in a position of authority here, I can't really change that (On my own board, I'd have moved the discussion to its own thread. I'm a bit of a cranky ape as a mod/admin).

My own view is that it should be an optional field (but wouldn't complain if it was removed). That's how I've done it on Wondercafe2, where is similarly unimportant but some people still want it as part of their identity. We've done a simple list of Male (which would include both Cis and Trans), Female (ditto), Fluid/Non-Binary, and, most importantly for this discussion, No Selection as the default. And if it is left as "No Selection" the field is removed from the profile. Even with SS's longer, more comprehensive list, adding a "No Selection" option, making it the default, and adding some code to hide the field from profiles when that is selected should not be rocket science.

Quote by AnnaMayZing

Quote by CuriousAnnie

 

Anna, I totally support Violet in this, as it is the right thing to do. My gender and sexuality, I hope, don't affect how you see me as a writer. And we have in these changes accentuated rather than de-emphasised gender. I republished Oxford Street here, it was a cri de coeur for the 'mode' or the most common not to be our frame of reference. Let that flow though to how we present ourselves to the next generation of writers. 

Annie, quite honestly, I don't care about your sexuality. It doesn't matter here. You are a person, a writer, a reader. If you want to wear your sexuality on your sleeve, fine, but here, it means nothing.

I think Violet and Annie's concerns are reasonable, and have been expressed politely and eloquently. I think the developers have been taking it seriously too, and I expect their concerns to be addressed eventually. I'm disappointed you chose to be dismissive about their very legitimate concerns, and hope the site as a whole is more inclusive and welcoming.

Personally, I would never have implemented the icons either, but that's me. I think they should just be removed since they serve no real purpose here that I can see. In fact, I find them a bit of an eyesore, regardless of any gender issues around them. Still, not a priority item compared to some other issues.

EDIT: Especially the big ugly one next to the username on a profile. There should be nothing there but the username and avatar. Spoils the cover image for one thing.

Quote by AnnaMayZing

Quote by verbal

I think Violet and Annie's concerns are reasonable, and have been expressed politely and eloquently. I think the developers have been taking it seriously too, and I expect their concerns to be addressed eventually. I'm disappointed you chose to be dismissive about their very legitimate concerns, and hope the site as a whole is more inclusive and welcoming.

I'm sure you do, Verbal. I'm disappointed that you have completely missed the point. The site, is, was and always will be, inclusive and welcoming, as am I. Unfortunately, these two are making a lot of noise unnecessarily. Gender identity is a choice. We all come into this world as boys and girls. What we choose from there is a matter of personal choice. There is genuine equality on this site. It is telling, to me at least, that these two, for all their complaining, are still identifying themselves as female. The admins have given them 13 options to choose from and still they are not happy. Who the hell cares what colour the little figure is. If this site can be manipulated in this way then I want no part of it. There is way too much influence coming from the other side of the fence. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/health/transgender-trump-biology.html

To blatantly state otherwise is diametrically opposed to the welcoming inclusiveness you claim – it’s dismissive marginalization.

Verbal and I are not the ones missing the point here.

I agree with Mendalla that this should not have turned into a gender debate, and that this should be moved to a different thread. Personally, I don't see how it's a debate, but it seems to have upset a few people who don't want to have change that allows more inclusion, acceptance, and understanding of gender diversity, or erases gender altogether from this site. I was just bringing up its importance, although I should have (in retrospect) posted my most recent posts regarding gender on the issues and bugs thread and not here. I completely admitted to how I was emotionally vested which made it impossible for me to write about in a 100% neutral tone.

Knowing that so much is hardcoded and entwined with the site functionality, I'm actually really pleased with the steps being taken to make the sites less gendered and welcoming in the coming updates.

I've also emphasized in all my posts that I understand that these changes will take a while to implement, some might not even be possible in regards to the site not breaking, but the fact that alternatives and other ways are being seriously looked at is great. I'm ok with it taking a long time as long as it hasn't been forgotten about.

It's not my fault if people choose to overlay a whiny complain-ey voice over mine and other's posts that talk about an issue that makes the reader uncomfortable.

It's more important in the short term that the site functions get to be the best they can. Do you all remember when comments and messenger didn't work at all? These have already been improved upon or completely fixed, and there will only be more improvements in the near future. The IT team is working their butts off so we should all be thankful for their diligence.

Apologies Anna, but your responses have felt a little marginalizing and come across as the opposite of supporting true inclusivity(bolded parts for emphasis by me):

Quote by AnnaMayZing
I agree, Violet, I hope this does eventually change. There is no need to stir up such a storm here. We come here to write and read stories and chat. This is not a sex site. I could get into a discussion about it but I am not willing to cause more of a row than has already been forced upon us, and yes, unnecessarily! If you don't like the way this site is run, then please, feel free to jump back over.

Quote by AnnaMayZing
I'm sure you do, Verbal. I'm disappointed that you have completely missed the point. The site, is, was and always will be, inclusive and welcoming, as am I. Unfortunately, these two are making a lot of noise unnecessarily. Gender identity is a choice. We all come into this world as boys and girls. What we choose from there is a matter of personal choice. There is genuine equality on this site. It is telling, to me at least, that these two, for all their complaining, are still identifying themselves as female. The admins have given them 13 options to choose from and still they are not happy. Who the hell cares what colour the little figure is. If this site can be manipulated in this way then I want no part of it. There is way too much influence coming from the other side of the fence. 

If you read through this thread and the issues and bugs thread, you will see it is more than two users that have brought up issues pertaining to gender. I'll link what I posted above again.

https://genderspectrum.org/articles/understanding-gender

Like Verbal said, it isn't a choice, and we don't all come into the world as boys or girls. I know it's something not talked about much, but I have some links on intersex if you wanted to further read about this.

https://isna.org/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

Just because I'm a newer member here, doesn't make my presence on this site less valid than anyone else. Like you, I've contributed stories. Yes, I have a lot of explicit stories not suited for this site, but I also have other stories I want to tell, and I've found I enjoy writing and the community on Stories Space (which is currently almost all users who originally were on the other site).

I also don't understand how mine or Annie's gender identity negates anything about the site working towards more inclusivity?

I've actually got mine as a blank on my profile, but I don't think that matters to you.  For someone who claims to not care about the gender or sexuality of the other users here, you seem to care a lot about mine.

Being inclusive of gender and sexuality does not equal this turning into an adult-oriented site. These are topics that can be made appropriate for any age. Gender isn't a topic that is rated X. Gender isn't sexual. 

And no, I won't be leaving stories space.

Quote by magnificent1rascal

Anna, it was proven long ago that gender identity, like sexual orientation, is not a matter of choice. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/health/transgender-trump-biology.html

To blatantly state otherwise is diametrically opposed to the welcoming inclusiveness you claim – it’s dismissive marginalization.

Verbal and I are not the ones missing the point here.

Sadly, Maggie, yes you did miss the point. The point is, It doesn't matter how you identify yourself, you will be welcome here. The Admins have offered 13 choices. Is that not enough? Don't bother posting links about how people identify themselves, it's not the issue, and do not dare accuse me of dismissing the choices of others! As I said, ALL are welcome, without exception! Can you say say the same, hand on heart? I doubt it.

I think ..create a Think Tank forum ..move any debates there.

I only entered this thread for some friendly assistance. I will just move along.

Just a suggestion for Griffers, maybe create a thread with answers, explanations and updates only. Lock it so no one can post. It will make it easier for members to find answers and solutions to their questions, without the signatures and quotes.

😂😂😃👋bfn ..a floating member 

Let’s dial back the tone of this thread. Nicola has posted a gentle reminder here:

https://www.storiesspace.com/forum/site-announcements-and-members-feedback/a-gentle-message-concerning-new-site-feedback